Curse

legion_rat · May 11, 2008, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Since the GW site says they will be trying out pve and pvp versions of the same skills, maybe Soul Reaping could be reverted back to pre-nerf setting. I understand that it made PvP overpowered with all the spiirit fields etc, but in PvE it has made necromancer much harder to play. While I can still play mine, and I know others have adapted, I would like to see a return to the original SR.

thoughts/ideas

signed/unsigned

please no flames, act like grown ups if you can.

~the rat~

*and yes I know SR is not a skill its an attribute, but I would think it wouldnt be that hard to try out.

miskav · May 11, 2008, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Skills changing, not attributes, so I doubt seeing this happen =/

/signed anyway, would be fun.

Tyla · May 11, 2008, 04:55 PM // 16:55

Signed only if we get infinite minions.

If we get even more stupid emanagement, we deserve epic minions.
Screw BotM, GOGO FEAST FOR THE DEAD!!!!

And I'd like to mention, it didn't make Necromancer harder, it made it less mindless.

jiggles · May 11, 2008, 04:55 PM // 16:55

thanks to [signet of lost souls] and good killing skills i can play my necro just as i could before the nerf

but it would make things soooo much funner, /signed

Earth · May 11, 2008, 04:59 PM // 16:59

They're changing skills, not attributes.

And anyway, making 2 different attributes for both PvE and PvP is stupid.

legion_rat · May 11, 2008, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earth

They're changing skills, not attributes.

And anyway, making 2 different attributes for both PvE and PvP is stupid.

if you read the post I mentioned that I knew it was skills only. Wasting the the time on skills is just as stupid and time comsuming. This is the suggestion forum, this is my suggestion. If you do not have an argument/debate for or against it other than "Its stupid" please dont bother to post.

~the rat~

shoyon456 · May 11, 2008, 05:17 PM // 17:17

Why doesnt anet just make 2 games, GW pvp and GW pve? lol

At any rate, since they're doing skills you have a point. Although we'll most likely see more of this split in GW2 (duh)

serod · May 11, 2008, 05:17 PM // 17:17

/Signed

Together with infinite minions = necro uber ownage.

miskav · May 11, 2008, 05:24 PM // 17:24

I must admit, having 40 minnions running around was epic fun =)

Chthon · May 11, 2008, 05:51 PM // 17:51

/signed

1. Removing the timer isn't about making SR more powerful, it IS about fixing a whole bunch of problems caused by the timer's extremely poor design.

It's clunky, ugly, and unintuitive.
It punishes you for playing well. The better you do at eliminating mobs quickly, the worse it cuts into your energy gains, and the worse shape it leaves you in for the next mob.
It randomizes something that should be consistent. With 10 SR, from a 10-monster mob, you can gain as much as 100 energy, or as little as 3 (or even 0 if you have minions in tow). That's exceedingly random. This randomness...
- (1) Is extremely frustrating.
- (2) Makes it completely impossible to play at the level of skill where you plan for and "manage" your available energy. Supporters of the timer often say that "under the old SR, the answer to 'should I cast this spell now?' was always 'yes, because I don't have to worry about energy'"; but what they don't see is that, with the timer, the answer is "yes, because I have no way to predict whether I have to worry about energy or not, and I can't afford to 'live in fear' and never cast anything." In fact, the timer is slightly WORSE for encouraging energy "management" than unbounded soul reaping. If you fully understood and appreciated the old soul reaping, you could spend down all of your energy gains -- you could even tally up each mob before you engaged it, figure out how much energy you were going to gain, and plan out how you were going to use every point of energy before the battle even began. Few players actually played at that skill level, but it was at least possible. The random behavior under the timered soul reaping is impossible to predict, so "managing" your energy in that way is strictly impossible.
It conflicts with the intended synergy between Soul Reaping and corpse-exploitation skills. The obvious design intent behind soul reaping originally was to provide immediate energy for casting corpse-exploitation skills at the same time the corpse became available. The timer breaks this. Sometimes you get energy along with a corpse, and sometimes you don't. That's a problem.
(Additionally, some folks like Carinae would say that getting energy when there isn't a corpse is also a problem that needs fixed.)
It conflicts with the minion cap mechanic. Originally, the high prices on minion spells were justified because some of the energy wasn't actually spent, but rather "stored" in the minion and recovered through SR when it died. The minion cap didn't break this; it might kill a minion early, but you still got your energy back out of that minion. The timer breaks it. The cap may force a minion to die while the timer is denying energy, so the energy "stored" in that minion is lost for good. Moreover, this is somewhat likely to happen because the timer has certainly already triggered at least once by the death that provided the body that turned into the 11th minion.
This problem is worst in the case of shambling horrors that can go into a chain reaction against the minion cap, triggering the timer and continuing to kill off several more minions without returning energy.

2. Removing the timer absolutely has to be done, but it doesn't have to be the only change to SR in PvE. The timer has to be removed for all the reasons I listed above, but independent changes to reduce the overall power of SR could be done as well.
For instance, I could entirely support Carinae's plan of (1) remove the timer, and (2) remove SR from minions, and (3) drastically reduce the cost of all the minion skills. This would remove the "energy but no corpse" scenario, and it would remove the "one minion bomber powering an entire team of necros" gimmick that we see in Sabway.

3. Dividing PvE and PvP SR would also be extremely good for PvP. SR is horrifically weak in PvP. The only thing it ever had going for it was a couple of gimmicks that have been totally eliminated by the nerf to Jagged Bones and the nerf to SR triggering on spirits. Splitting SR allows for SR to be totally reworked from the ground up to make something useful in PvP without having to worry about messing up PvE.

Earth · May 11, 2008, 06:02 PM // 18:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by legion_rat

if you read the post I mentioned that I knew it was skills only. Wasting the the time on skills is just as stupid and time comsuming. This is the suggestion forum, this is my suggestion. If you do not have an argument/debate for or against it other than "Its stupid" please dont bother to post.

~the rat~

Look, honestly. Is it really that hard to understand that creating 2 different attributes for PvE and PvP is stupid? This will only make the gap between PvE and PvP even larger, and when SR gets changed, EVERYONE wants their favorite class to have a silly overpowered primary attribute.

SR is fine. I honestly don't get why people were crying about Ursan being overpowered if you're just going to make other things overpowered.

Longasc · May 11, 2008, 06:05 PM // 18:05

I agree that soul reaping has become rather unintuitive.

Still, my Necro has still supreme energy management and not really problems with energy gain.

@Chthon: No idea what Carinae suggested, but so far they only wanted to change a FEW skills.

If we start this: SR PvE version, minions PvE version, could we also make Blood Magic PvE versions, as vampiric gaze sucks so much in PvE?

Where will this end, it goes very much towards a total separation. In this case they should really do this, complete separation of the skills.
True PvP and PvE skills.

I do not like how Soul Reaping works at the moment, but if SR really needs a PvE change/buff, then I could easily name a ton of skills that could use some PvE-skill love. For example Watch Yourself, Incoming, ...

I am waiting for next Thursday, I again see good intentions, but it also seems to be more of a compromise than an ideal solution. Maybe this is the beginning of a total PvE/PvP separation for GW2, who knows. And then people can discuss if this would be really desirable.

Div · May 11, 2008, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earth

Look, honestly. Is it really that hard to understand that creating 2 different attributes for PvE and PvP is stupid?

I assume you don't know the OP very well. He's on par with solange and co. A little better though.

legion_rat · May 12, 2008, 11:04 PM // 23:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

I assume you don't know the OP very well. He's on par with solange and co. A little better though.

ummm thanks....

I know it will not be changed, its an idea/suggestion. I like SR the old way it played. I dont like the fact that if I kill 4 enemies I dont get the full amount of energy from it. While the current way of SR does work, I prefered the original format. That is why I suggested it.

to the person who thinks that UB and SR compare. I dont give a damn. I dont use Ursan, but it has allowed alot of classes, such as assassin go place that the elitist assholes whould not usualy choose them. Even with ursan there is the "your a sin? sorry no" crap. I have seen it.

To wrap up my rant, this was a suggestion. I preferred SR the old way. I dont care about PvP. It pisses me off how many skills and other aspects of the game were changed because people are to stupid to learn to counter PvP builds. "oh damn its a touch ranger!" which now most people laugh at. "Nerf the R/D!!!!" mleh shut up and learn to play. Anets trying to seperate the skills is a great idea. One I, and many others, have suggested for 2 years or more.

~the rat~

Bront · May 13, 2008, 02:22 AM // 02:22

/notsigned

SR is the most powerful e-management attribute as it is in PvE, it doesn't need a buff.

Nevin · May 13, 2008, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Earth

Look, honestly. Is it really that hard to understand that creating 2 different attributes for PvE and PvP is stupid? This will only make the gap between PvE and PvP even larger, and when SR gets changed, EVERYONE wants their favorite class to have a silly overpowered primary attribute.

SR is fine. I honestly don't get why people were crying about Ursan being overpowered if you're just going to make other things overpowered.

Because the snow balls already rolling, might as well make it a boulder as it goes down hill.

doudou_steve · May 14, 2008, 12:30 AM // 00:30

/signed to be reverted at his normal status
/notsigned for unlimited minions

FlamingMetroid · May 14, 2008, 12:42 AM // 00:42

/signed
also wars need to ignore armor
rangers need to not use any energy at all
monks need a 500 pt Divine Favor bonus
elementalists need to have 1000en
mesmers' spells should cast in the past
assassins should gain 50 en on hit
ritualists should make weapons spells last forever and be stackable
dervishes should never die
paragons should be able to keep +100 armor on everybody all the time, O WAIT
[/END SARCASM]

don't make more things overpowered >_>

snaek · May 14, 2008, 12:54 AM // 00:54

they need to at least change it so that
any energy u do not get from soul reaping (cuz ur already at max energy)
will not count towards the cap

so instead of, "You may only gain Energy in this way 3 times every 15 seconds."

it will be, "You may only gain Energy equivelent to 3 times your Soul Reaping attribute every 15 seconds."

but maybe scale it down to 2.5x or 2x

I Can Cure Cancer · May 14, 2008, 12:58 AM // 00:58

/signed, I'm a PvE'r I don't care about balance I just love to steamroll things.